tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.comments2014-05-29T17:07:40.692-05:00All Things NewAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16362575507895945799noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-45475089888894019442014-05-29T17:07:25.938-05:002014-05-29T17:07:25.938-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.BETTY BENSON ROBERTSONhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01150770090998215618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-49656350311413802452014-05-29T17:07:06.643-05:002014-05-29T17:07:06.643-05:00Wow! Thank you for sharing your heart, David.Wow! Thank you for sharing your heart, David.BETTY BENSON ROBERTSONhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01150770090998215618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-83895532081201835922013-09-29T06:50:19.479-05:002013-09-29T06:50:19.479-05:00Relative to verse 19-21, my interpret is that Paul...Relative to verse 19-21, my interpret is that Paul referring to people who refuse to acknowledge the existence of God despite obvious evidence that He is real. People who come to my mind are agnostics and atheists. Having had someone close to me go from a believer to an unbeliever, and seeing how they descend into a state of confusion in just about every aspect of their life because they openly rejected and turned their back on God, i feel they have been given over to their own sinful pursuits.<br />just my thoughts, but I also agree with your interpretation. Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-41015655510594817252013-09-05T15:32:03.050-05:002013-09-05T15:32:03.050-05:00I was "the new kid" my junior year at FH...I was "the new kid" my junior year at FHS and your Dad was one of the first to welcome me and make a nervous and anxious teenager feel at ease in a new school. I have never forgot his kindness. I do look forward to seeing him and his warm smile some day. Linda Simmons GivenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-3659169584344603972013-08-27T22:10:06.589-05:002013-08-27T22:10:06.589-05:00I went to church with Gene for years when we were ...I went to church with Gene for years when we were growing up. He was always friendly and nice to everyone. I am so glad he was able to visit WV this past year and see some of his friends. He was very proud of you and your family. He mentioned you a lot and you were very blessed to have had a father like him in your life. Thanks for sharing your letter. PamAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-12730586974683064672013-08-26T19:53:06.539-05:002013-08-26T19:53:06.539-05:00I so truly agree with your letter and he was very ...I so truly agree with your letter and he was very special to all and to me he was my baby uncle, only 2 yrs older than me. Thanks for sharing your letter. Love, Zendazendahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01980276907802374138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-84623552927286956272013-07-31T08:27:15.724-05:002013-07-31T08:27:15.724-05:00Ongoing dialogue between a pastor and his people (...Ongoing dialogue between a pastor and his people (especially with those parishioners in oversight/leadership roles) will go a long way in helping a pastor discern personal ministry priorities. Keeping a log of weekly activities and the time given to these activities might help a pastor see areas needing more attention and other areas that could be scaled back. Sharing this info with those who might have different pastoral expectations could help in finding common ground. I have never heard a pastor say he ran out of things to do in any given week. But deciding what needs the most attention on Thursday morning can't be easy.Jeff Hendrickernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-28594285511671891662013-02-04T18:29:02.288-06:002013-02-04T18:29:02.288-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16362575507895945799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-64839100804730872462013-02-04T18:28:38.957-06:002013-02-04T18:28:38.957-06:00Thanks Vince. I often look back on the days when ...Thanks Vince. I often look back on the days when you were my pastor with great thankfulness.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16362575507895945799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-8143858250251180832013-02-04T16:46:43.674-06:002013-02-04T16:46:43.674-06:00David, I absolutely love those last few lines! I w...David, I absolutely love those last few lines! I would be so proud to have you as my pastor!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13055978588122100819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-27644611136021602292012-12-06T21:07:22.757-06:002012-12-06T21:07:22.757-06:00Daryl: Yes, please feel free to repost.
Thanks S...Daryl: Yes, please feel free to repost.<br /><br />Thanks Sarah.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16362575507895945799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-62491909218910617362012-12-06T10:26:17.948-06:002012-12-06T10:26:17.948-06:00What a refreshing thing to read as I start my day....What a refreshing thing to read as I start my day. Thank you for your careful articulation. I'm an alumna of NTS, and was directed to your blog from a link David Busic posted on FB. God bless your ministry today.Sarah Derckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01399529409541054495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-83741655279692838622012-12-06T09:10:49.406-06:002012-12-06T09:10:49.406-06:00David,
Excellent post. thank you! Is OK to rep...David, <br /><br />Excellent post. thank you! Is OK to repost with proper credit a link-back?<br /><br />DarylAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-54773800311558850582012-12-05T15:43:04.750-06:002012-12-05T15:43:04.750-06:00To Anonymous:
While my experience at ENC was obvi...To Anonymous:<br /><br />While my experience at ENC was obviously quite different from what you've described above, I don't doubt the experience you've recounted. I don't know anything about the advertising for ENC or the denomination. That's just not something in which I've ever been involved so I can't speak to it. But I do know that we have our fair share (perhaps more than our fair share?) of legalism and judgment within our denomination. I know because I've experienced it firsthand more than once. I know because I've been the one guilty of it more than once. Perhaps I was even one of those who failed to extend grace to you during your time at ENC. If so, I am sorry. There is no doubt that I could be very judgmental at times during my college years and still can be on my worst days. <br /><br />One of the things I appreciate most about my time at ENC was that, far from being a protective bubble, it challenged me to grow and began to move me away from that judgment and legalism. Obviously, it didn't happen all at once but ENC was largely responsible for setting me on a path that has helped me to see the world in less black and white ways. Again, I don't say that to discount your own experience but simply to say that my experience was something else - and it was a positive, indeed, a life changing means of grace in my life. <br /><br />I hope it is also clear that my post was not meant to be a whitewashing of all the sins of the Church of the Nazarene. The general tenor of the post was meant to communicate (though perhaps it didn't do so adequately) that despite all of our failings (and they are legion) these are the things that I still appreciate about the Church of the Nazarene. It is certainly not an argument that our denomination is better than all the rest. I assume every denomination has its own particular set of failings. The purpose of my post was simply to celebrate what I feel we are doing right (and, of course, to answer the question of the person in my congregation). <br /><br />I hope that wherever you are now you are enjoying a Christian fellowship characterized by love and grace rather than legalism and judgment. <br /><br />To Jeremy: Thanks for your comments. You are always an encouragement to me. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16362575507895945799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-8939832739444070512012-12-05T14:01:00.988-06:002012-12-05T14:01:00.988-06:00Thanks for this, Dave.
I imagine everyone has the...Thanks for this, Dave.<br /><br />I imagine everyone has their struggles with institution. I often find myself wishing for something different as much of that which comes with institution seems to eat away at Kingdom. But for most of the reasons that you list, I too value the CotN. She has much room for change, but she is family. She will likely die someday, and that's okay: the Kingdom will be just fine.<br /><br />As has already been demonstrated above, people can indeed be hurt by their time served or spent in some kind of organizational institutions - whether academic, ecclesial, and especially corporate. The Internet is full of examples of people spouting off on such things. Anyone can shout loudly and be heard if they do it right these days.<br /><br />I like what one writer said about hating on institutions: "When I meet someone who has been burned by an institution, my first question is, 'What was the person's name'?" <br /><br />So the problem with the CotN, ENC, and other institutions is that they're made up of people. But the great thing about institutions is that they're made up of people. If you don't like people, chances are institutions aren't the only thing that make you mad.<br /><br />Anyway, thanks again, brother.Jeremyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15561745596768785374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-62441667176554994892012-12-05T13:23:57.307-06:002012-12-05T13:23:57.307-06:00Ohhhh it looks so *NICE* all laid out in black and...Ohhhh it looks so *NICE* all laid out in black and white, however, my experience of the Nazarene Churches and it's affiliate, ENC, is MUCH different. I and several friends left the denomination for reasons that are much more tangible. Namely, that we felt that, in general, while the Nazarene church preached the love and grace of Christ -the church bodies were more about rules, fake grace and judgement. ENC was a protective bubble where the already molded acceptable Nazarenes were groomed to advertise for the college and the denomination and to find and marry more acceptable Nazarenes to produce more proper Nazarenes. Sorry, but: "What's So Great About Being a Nazarene?".... Pfft. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-13231469747463673442012-08-06T21:12:47.811-05:002012-08-06T21:12:47.811-05:00I love this whole thing, especially: "Althoug...I love this whole thing, especially: "Although the transformative work of God can certainly take place in an instant, the spiritual growth that is necessary to fully appropriate that work of God in our lives will probably not be measured in weeks or months but in decades."Christine Mariettahttp://christinemarietta.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-89987331198005805492012-07-09T10:02:51.103-05:002012-07-09T10:02:51.103-05:00Thanks for the comment Mike. I apologize for taki...Thanks for the comment Mike. I apologize for taking so long to respond but I've been on a mission trip this past week. <br /><br />As to your question, the revision I spoke of in this blog post did pass at the time (but notice I wrote this three years ago). However, the revision of the Articles of Faith is never really complete or set in stone in the Church of the Nazarene - although they are intentionally made very difficult to change (these are our basic beliefs, after all, we don't want them just changed on a whim). The process of changing an article begins at the District Assembly level where proposals can be made for the next General Assembly (which is next year). At General Assembly (the meeting of Nazarene representatives from around the world), committees are formed which look at the many proposals from all the districts. The committee will then recommend certain proposals for consideration by the larger assembly. If the assembly votes in favor of those changes then it still has to go back to all the district assemblies and be ratified by two thirds of the districts. It is only once that happens that the article is changed in the manual. So like I said, the articles are never set in stone - more like a never quite completely hardened wet concrete. The conversation about our articles and doctrines is an ongoing one and I'm sure that someone will propose exactly the kind of changes I've mentioned here again this year just as they have been proposed in the past. Having said that, the revision that took place at the last General Assembly in 2009 was probably one of the most substantial revisions to Article X in our church's history. <br /><br />As a separate matter, I know you mentioned that your disagreement with some this article is what has kept you from becoming a member and I certainly appreciate that concern for honesty and integrity. However, I don't think I would consider your concerns enough to keep you from being a member. After all, I am not only a member but an ordained elder in the Church of the Nazarene and I became so having openly discussed the disagreements I've expressed here with my District Superintendent and Credential Board (not mention having posted it on the internet where anyone can see it). So I'd encourage you to discuss this with your new pastor and see what he thinks. My belief is that there is room within our membership for disagreement over details like this concerning what the process of sanctification looks like as long as there is agreement on the much more central issue that we should all be seeking holiness as long as you are being open and honest about your perspective (which it seems you are). After all, you will never be able to formally participate in the kind of discussions that can actually change things unless you become a member. <br /><br />Please feel free to e-mail me directly at dyoung4800@gmail.com if you have any other questions.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16362575507895945799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-76357297584261702082012-07-05T01:37:00.445-05:002012-07-05T01:37:00.445-05:00I have attended a wonderful Nazarene church the pa...I have attended a wonderful Nazarene church the past six years. I love it there, love the people, and am loved by them. I have been asked a couple of times to teach the men's Sunday school class, but have declined because I think if a person is going to hold such an important church position, he should be a member of the church, and I am not, nor can I become one.<br /><br />I refuse to join because I cannot support and believe the doctrine of the Church of the Nazarene in its entirety. I have studied it closely and find that it is a wonderful, Biblically strong doctrine with which I am in full support and agreement, except for one thing, and that one thing looms very large to me. I most definitely believe in and covet holiness, but I absolutely do not believe that any part of its attainment, whether you call it "entire sanctification", "perfect love", "heart purity", or whatever, must occur in an instant of time as a second definite work of grace. Also, I do not believe the doctrine of the "double cure", where the second part of the "cure" is cleansing from original sin, i.e., depravity. I believe that *all* forgiveness for and cleansing from *all* sin that exists at the time, both original and committed, is granted at the time of salvation, i.e., the "born again experience", and I believe that holiness is a daily growing-by-grace experience. Although this daily experience is rarely linear but can often have jumps and dips like an EKG, it still takes place over time. And I am not just speaking my opinion...as a student of the Bible most of my life (I'm 61), I do not and have never found any support whatsoever for the "instant-in-time" version of sanctification.<br /><br />Our church recently called a new pastor and, anticipating that he like his predesseor might eventually ask me why I was not a member, I have been re-familiaring myself with this issue, and when I Googled "Article X", I came across your blog entry on same. Having seen that you agree with me to at least some extent, I am leaving this comment to ask you this: what is the state of this issue? Has the process of revamping the Articles been completed and are thus set in stone for next year, or is the issue of which I speak an open one and one still under debate? Any information you could give me on the state of the debate about the doctrine of entire sanctification as an instant-in-time work would be much appreciated.<br /><br /><br />Maranatha....Mike AcordWarPighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09026558927315612250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-58822981700248250392012-04-04T10:42:16.112-05:002012-04-04T10:42:16.112-05:00I'm not at all certain of that. You are being...I'm not at all certain of that. You are being more precise in your distinctions than I was trying to be in my post. My point was merely that the Corinthians were not rejecting the notion that someone could live after death. So in saying that Paul and the Corinthians agree about Christ's resurrection, I don't mean they necessarily agreed on what that meant but merely that something they both agreed to call "resurrection" happened to Jesus. It seems logical that they might have denied the bodily nature of Christ's resurrection as well as their own(thus the need for Paul to recount all the public appearances in v.1-11). But they at least seem to agree that something they have accepted as resurrection happened to Jesus since Paul premises his argument on Christ's resurrection in v.12-13. It is difficult to see how that argument would be meaningful if it was not a premise on which he and the Corinthians agreed. However, I think the rest of the chapter, v.35 and beyond especially, show Paul probably needed to be more clear about what he meant by resurrection.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16362575507895945799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-52918014904016441562012-04-03T15:18:22.662-05:002012-04-03T15:18:22.662-05:00Where does your 'certainty' come from that...Where does your 'certainty' come from that the Christians in Corinth did not deny the bodily resurrection of Christ, but only their own future bodily resurrections?J. Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03208686544251588420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-50533076601180729162012-03-28T10:53:20.833-05:002012-03-28T10:53:20.833-05:00I am going to say there was a certain kind of inev...I am going to say there was a certain kind of inevitability to the conditions of the first century but because of the human condition, not because Torah failed to do something it was supposed to do. That is to say essentially what Paul has said in Romans 7:12-13. (Again, I recognize the possible problems with constantly seeking to understand the historical Jesus through Paul but I also wonder what better source we could possibly have to help us wrestle with this issue than a faithful, first century Jew like Paul.) In other words, I think it was always possible for Israel to seek to fulfill Torah in the right way, that is, by the power of the Spirit. Indeed, certain individuals in the OT did just that to varying degrees. However, I think we also needed to be shown that these were exceptions and that our tendency is toward self-reliance. I think that is one of the major themes of Israel's history. Therefore, I would say that the condition of Israel in the first century was inevitable due to the way our sinful nature leads us to interact with Torah rather than a failing of Torah itself. <br /><br />Of course, one might simply push the question back a step and ask why God designed Torah in this "incomplete" way to begin with. But then I think we are reminded that the purpose of the Torah's "incompleteness" is to lead us to God and so actually it is doing perfectly and completely what it was created to do.<br /><br />In fact, as I think about it in just those terms, it gives the idea of Jesus' fulfilling the Law new meaning for me. That is, we often think of the Law as something separate from Jesus that he has to fulfill by living it faithfully like any other Jew. But what if in addition to fulfilling it in that way he also fulfills it in an entirely unique way; that is, he makes it complete by being the presence of God in it? In other words, he fulfills it not merely by following it but by making it complete precisely in the ways that we've been talking about it being incomplete; he supplies the presence of God along side of it. After all, the Torah is really a kind of extension of Jesus himself in that they are both the Word. Perhaps then rather than saying that Jesus judged Torah, for that would be like judging himself, we can say that Jesus completes Torah with the personal presence of God.<br /><br />Those are just some rough thoughts but will have to do for now. Your thoughts?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16362575507895945799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-43205656149796960002012-03-27T16:27:56.738-05:002012-03-27T16:27:56.738-05:00In recent months I have been reflecting on the spe...In recent months I have been reflecting on the specific target of Jesus' judgment in passages such as this one. I agree completely that the fig tree serves as a near prophetic fulfillment of Jesus' cursing of the temple in Jerusalem.<br /><br />With that said, however, was Jesus judging the Jewish leadership for a reality that might-not-have-been, or, given the trajectory of Torah, was the condition in which Jesus found the temple, temple leadership, and Judaism generally, in one way or another, inevitable? In other words, might Jesus' judgment have fallen on the people only, or might it also have fallen on Torah?J. Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03208686544251588420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-10650257696388170442012-03-23T16:06:31.764-05:002012-03-23T16:06:31.764-05:00I really like the distinctions you've drawn in...I really like the distinctions you've drawn in your response, Dave. I also think that reading the Psalms in light of the ministry of Jesus and the writings of the apostles helps to bring a fullness to the writings that may or may not have been in the mind of the original author(s). With that said, I agree that the Hebrew concept of perfection is more in line with what you've articulated. I might even want to borrow the language of Isaiah to say that the Torah, as the Word of God, does not return to God void, but always accomplishes the task for which God sent it. In that way, it is complete, it is perfect. Good stuff, my friend, and careful--oh, how I love careful thinking!J. Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03208686544251588420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2352479132302430149.post-62260877673233610682012-03-23T11:56:37.602-05:002012-03-23T11:56:37.602-05:00I suppose a lot of that might come down to what on...I suppose a lot of that might come down to what one thinks the Psalmist means when he calls the law "perfect". If that is a more Greek idea of static perfection then Jesus saying that parts of the law are a concession is probably going to be problematic. However, if my interpretation of the final verses of this Psalm is correct then I think its clear that is not what the Psalmist means by perfection. Whatever the Psalmist means by perfection must be qualified by the Psalmist confession that the law itself is not enough. Maybe I'm reading too much of Paul (and my own epistemology) into these few verses but it seems to me the Psalmist is saying that the law is really only perfect if/because the Lord acts through it. If that's the case then one might argue that the law's perfection is not so much about having gotten everything "right" as it is about providing a medium through which God works to bring about righteousness in us even in our brokenness. Perhaps, if such a reading is plausible, then the Psalmist could acknowledge even a concession within the law as having a certain kind of perfection. Your thoughts?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16362575507895945799noreply@blogger.com